From the handwriting on the political wall, the choice of General Muhammadu Buhari and Professor Yemi Osinbajo as the All Progressives Congress (APC) Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates in this year’s election seems to cut the ground from under President Goodluck Jonathan’s feet. This is not because both or either of the opposition party’s flag bearers has a deep pocket. No, it is not. However, symbolism and perception have given them such mileage that the vehicle of incumbency has not helped the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP’s) candidate to cover. General Buhari and Professor Osinbajo are perceived to be symbols of integrity, or simply put, adversaries of corruption, the word so equipped with life that it has tormented and sacked the Nigerian nation from the path of purposeful development. The twists and turns in the march to the 2015 elections are seen as the ruling party’s search for a creative design to neutralize the threat posed to it by the overwhelming, near magical support, that the APC’s candidates have attracted, though they don’t belong to the bracket of rich politicians.
An opportunity to interview one of these wave-making politicians was dangled at SUNDAY TRUST last Monday and our reporter swiftly trapped it. Professor Osinbajo was en route Makurdi, Benue State, for a town hall meeting with a congregation of church leaders from the North-Central geopolitical zone. My contact said, “If you’re at Evergreen by 2.00pm, you could interview the professor.” It was like Prophet Elijah telling apprentice Elisha that if Elisha saw him being taken away in the clouds, young Elisha would receive the double portion of Elijah’s anointing for miracles.
This reporter was unaware that there is a terminus of Evergreen Aviation Nigeria in Lagos. It’s a stone’s throw from the Murtala Mohammed International Airport in Lagos. Evergreen is one of several private aviation terminals in the commercial city. After a tension-soaked hour of waiting, the lively chatter in the waiting lounge of the terminus screeched to a halt. In hushed tones, staff and half a dozen aides announced Professor Osinbajo’s arrival.
Without an air of power and without being surrounded by adulation or hero worship of “His Excellency,” the Vice-Presidential candidate sauntered into the reception hall. Instead of saluting him with his futuristic appellation, “His Excellency,” intermittently he was greeted with ‘Prof’ prefix and suffix. I noticed that ‘Prof’ had spread in the air from one corner of the waiting room to another. In an apparent mien that let out his preference for humility, Professor Osinbajo stretched out his hand and shook everyone in the room. Taking a step further, he acquiesced to appeals by everyone to pose for snap shots with everyone who was ready to utilize the photo opportunity with the hopeful Vice President.
However, the interview I expected would not take place at the speed of anxiety. Embedded in the activities of the professor from 2.00pm to 12.00 midnight on Monday, February 2, 2015, I learnt a lot of lessons, including the philosophical saying that money is not everything. The almost 58-year-old professor of Law I met from noon to midnight is what Apostle Paul would tag as “a written epistle”, an embodiment of the Christian faith. Incidentally, I was to later learn that it was at his Olive Tree Parish of the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG) in Banana Island, Lagos that President Goodluck Jonathan knelt down before Pastor Enoch Adeboye for prayer and anointing in the run-up to the 2011 presidential election. A Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN), Professor Osinbajo was Lagos State Attorney General during the eight years that Asiwaju Bola Tinubu was governor of the South-West State. Among many local and international organizations he is affiliated to is the United Nations. He is a member of the United Nations Secretary General’s Committee of Experts on Conduct and Discipline of UN Peacekeeping Personnel around the world. He’s also a staff member of the Justice Division of the United Nations Operations in Somalia (UNOSOM). In this interview, Professor Osinbajo spoke on his faith and politics. Excerpts:
As a Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN) and former Attorney-General of Lagos State, it was never your kind of schedule to be travelling from one part of the country to another on campaign. How are you coping with the demands?
It’s been very hectic but exciting. It’s interesting. One is able to go the length and breadth of the country and meet with real people, with real issues and real problems. We’re able to get a general sense of how the man on the street, the average Nigerian feels about so many issues. I think it’s one of the most educative, instructive periods of my life.
If you look at the reception in Makurdi, people had high expectations from you and the Presidential candidate of the APC, General Muhammadu Buhari. How do you feel when you discover that people may be expecting much more than you can deliver, if elected?
I think it’s a bit overwhelming sometimes. But what strengthens me is the fact that I know that if the Lord helps us to win the election, we’ll give it our best; we would have no other objective than good governance, no private agenda, nothing. I think that commitment alone is what strengthens me. I know how committed General Buhari is; I know how single-minded he is and fortunately, I share that with him - commitment and single-mindedness to the Nigerian project.
How well did you know Buhari before you were named his running mate in the forthcoming election?
I had met him a number of times in the past few years. But before the presidential nomination, there was a time when we were drafting the APC manifestoes and other things I had occasions to interact with him quite frequently. I had interacted with him, spoken to him, discussed with him on few occasions.
If you didn’t know him quite well, if you become his Vice-President, you may not be able to function in harmony.
No. I don’t think. For instance, I had never met Asiwaju Bola Tinubu before I became Attorney-General. I had not met him before he won the election as governor-elect. But we had a working relationship that lasted eight years. I regard him as an older brother. And in many senses, he is also my leader. We’ve functioned so well, so effectively for all of these years. So, I don’t think it’s important that you know someone very, very well in order to work well with him. What is most important is commitment, loyalty and trustworthiness. That’s it.
Are you worried that some Christian leaders are campaigning against Buhari, expressing the fear that he could Islamise the country?
No, I’m not worried because I know that the truth will prevail. I know that there are some individuals who genuinely worry about Islamization. But there are others who know the truth but prefer the propaganda for their own interest. I know some people are genuinely worried, but there is nothing to worry about it. The reason why no one should worry is that there is no Islamic agenda; General Buhari has no Islamic agenda, and I can say that with conviction because I have interacted with him, and his antecedents do not show that he has any fundamentalist Islamic tendencies.
What are the antecedents which attest to your claim?
The first is that he was a Head of State of Nigeria from December 1983 to August 1985. In that period he had nearly absolute powers. He appointed the ministers, governors, his deputy was a Muslim. Of the 19 governors that he appointed, 11 were Christians. Of the ministers he appointed, 70 per cent of them were Christians. That was when he could have done what he wished. He was under pressure; there were forces that wanted him to join the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC). He refused to join the OIC. He took the view that Nigeria was a secular state and should not join the OIC as a member. He refused to join. It was only in 1988, thereafter, that the country joined OIC. But everyone of us knows that the first Nigerian Head of State to attend the OIC is President Goodluck Jonathan.
So, clearly Buhari is not going to Islamize the country. Also, the first Islamic insurgency that was suppressed in Nigeria, the Maitatsine insurgency, was suppressed by General Buhari. If he believed in Islamic extremist ideology, he would have allowed Maitatsine. He led the Nigerian Army and ensured that Maitatsine was completely suppressed. Besides all that, some people have accused him of saying that Muslims should vote for Muslims, Christians should vote for Christians. Not only is that absurd, he has denied that many times. It’s absurd.
The first time he ran for office, he chose Senator Chuba Okadigbo of blessed memory; the second was the late Chief Ume Ezeoke; the third was Pastor Tunde Bakare; and the fourth is myself. If he believes that Muslims should vote for Muslims, why should he go and pick a Christian running mate? That’s absurd. Why should anyone believe that funny story? Some people said he threatened to make Nigeria ungovernable if he lost elections.
He sued the newspaper company that published the story. The media outfit formally apologized publicly to him, that they lied against him. Some said, he promised to spread the Shar’iah rule. He has denied that repeatedly. On Sunday, some people were placing a mischievous advert, congratulating him on his plans to spread the Shar’iah. The Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) propaganda is very strong and they’ve tried their best to cause fear; they’re trying to spread fear in the minds of the people, especially Christians, saying Buhari is planning to Islamise the country. There’s nothing farther from the truth.
I’ve spoken to him personally, and he’s said to me, that the two people who were closest to him in the army and for whom he has the greatest respect are General Gowon and General T.Y. Danjuma. Both of them are Christians from the North. He said, ‘why don’t you ask them what their views are about me, whether I’m a fundamentalist or not?’ Finally, he said he has told us repeatedly, his driver of over 15 years is a Christian, his bodyguards are mostly Christians; some were killed when he was attacked in Kaduna. And Buhari said, ‘If I can’t Ismalise my cook and steward, driver, how am I going to Islamise the likes of Yemi Osinbajo, Rochas Okorocha, Ogbonnaya Onu, Governor Fayemi, Niyi Adebayo, Rotimi Amaechi?’
Besides, Islamization of the country is impossible, technically. You have to amend the constitution. Everybody knows how long it takes to amend the constitution. Not only do you need an act of the National Assembly, you need two-thirds of 36 states, that’s 24 states, voting together to say that they want an Islamic country. How are you going to get that? It’s not possible. Technically, it’s not possible. But when you hear people holding on to that, it’s because of the way the PDP propaganda has spread the lies. Unfortunately, many people have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Those who have their own private agenda are talking about Islamisation.
But I can say, definitely, that I’m a committed Christian, I’m committed to my faith, I certainly, know there is no such desire. But I also believe very strongly that my role in government would be to ensure there is justice for Muslims, justice for Christians, and justice for those who don’t have any belief system. Everyone of us must be treated fairly. The business of government is not religion. It is to protect the lives and property of its citizenry; to ensure that everybody has freedom of worship, to practice their religion, freedom to recreate, enjoy themselves and do their businesses peacefully. That’s what the business of government is.
What was the reaction of Pastor Enoch Adeboye to your appointment as the running mate to Buhari?
The first thing that I must say is that, Pastor Adeboye is my spiritual father. Beyond being my spiritual father, he’s a person I regard as a father to me. The first thing I must do, and which I did, was to speak to him even when the speculation was on that I was being considered as vice-presidential nominee. He unequivocally said to me that if the offer was ever made to me I must take it. He was categorical, that he thought that would be a wonderful opportunity, and that I should take the opportunity. Pastor Adeboye said he knew, because of my personal commitment, if I was offered and took it, and by God’s grace, we won the election, I would be able to contribute very effectively to governance and be a good representative of our faith. He was fully supportive of my taking the vice presidential candidacy offer.
When some preachers say they will open the gates of hell to those who oppose Jonathan, how do you feel?
Personally, I didn’t hear it. I haven’t come across it, really. I’m one that wouldn’t want to comment on the utterances of ministers and all that. I just don’t think that is appropriate to begin to comment on it. I didn’t hear anyone say that.
What does it mean to open the gates of hell for another person?
I don’t want to comment on it because I didn’t hear it. I shouldn’t waste my time analyzing it.
I learnt that former President Olusegun Obasanjo made an offer for you to be the Attorney-General of the Federation, but you rejected it. Why?
Let me just say that friends of mine within the administration, at one point in time, came together and spoke to me about it. But at the time I was the Attorney-General in Lagos State. I was committed to the job I was doing. At that time we had just got our decision from the Supreme Court on the Local Government funds withheld by the Federal Government.
The orders of the court had not been obeyed by the Obasanjo administration, and it just wasn’t something I considered honourable to do at that time. I told my friends who approached me that it was not an honourable thing, and that I could not, considering the circumstances, and given my commitment to the state and to the party Action Congress (AC).
But being the AGF would have given you more powers and even wealth?
That is not a relevant consideration for me because making a contribution requires you to go in with some credibility. You cannot do a dishonourable thing and hope that you’ll be able to make a serious contribution. Anyway, what sort of wealth am I going to make? It would be illegal. That was not a consideration, anyway.
What’s your philosophy about wealth, because you keep on giving the impression that wealth is not a serious motivation for you?
A concept that has always remained with me, is that affluence, wealth by itself is futile unless whatever it is that you have is benefitting others. It is for that same reason that I can’t take bribe because, aside from the fact that I’m a born-again Christian, I strongly believe that you cannot steal from people or government, to take bribes in whatever shape or form. My reasons for that are fundamental: you cannot in truth operate without integrity and expect God’s blessings.
You must act with integrity all the time as much as you can. For me, affluence by itself, if your purpose is to become rich, or your purpose in life is to become affluent, it’s a futile exercise. You’ll achieve nothing. Money, at the end of the day, is meaningless. If you get it by illegal means, you’re bound to regret it down the line. And if you are one who knows that you cannot do evil and then expect good (you reap what you sow), then you’re much more careful about anything like the illegal accumulation of wealth. I think that some of what you see in the society today have been created by the accumulation of wealth. There’s something that is dysfunctional about the human mind that operates at that level. People who have been entrusted with political power, power that is supposed to be to the benefits of over a hundred million Nigerians, would seize the commonwealth for themselves. That’s a dysfunctional mind.
Have you ever been tempted with money, a huge sum of money, and you looked at it and said, no?
You know, I served in government for eight years. Always, Nigerians want to subject authority, and because there is no consequence for giving and receiving bribes, many have come to believe that you must bribe public officials. If you’re in public office, you’re always confronted with this, not once in a while. It’s your duty to decide what to do. That’s why it’s important to come into office with a certain set of ethics, whether they are inspired by the fear of God or whatever. You must come to office with your ethics, your rule of engagement. Turning down a bribe, for me, is not an issue at all.
What’s your wife’s attitude toward such ascetic lifestyle? Women would always want to enjoy the good things of life which your legitimate earnings alone can’t afford?
My wife fully supports me (laughs). We share the same philosophy about money. We don’t believe that money is the purpose of life. We both accept that position, and we’ve been married now for 25 years. We’ve always lived modestly. We built our first home when I was 51 years old, after I left office. We’ve lived in rented accommodation for many years. We never used a brand new car until 1998. We always used Tokunbo cars. That’s not because we’re not hardworking, but we strongly believe that we must work hard for the money we earn.
We must teach our children the value of integrity. My own father said to me many years ago, (and we wrote the words on slab on his grave): ‘the place of integrity is where we ought to be found, whether or not it is also the place of wealth.’ He said we must be found in the place of integrity, no matter what. That’s been my guiding principle. For my wife, also, we don’t live beyond our means. We enjoy our lives; we’re happy with what God has provided for us.
It is speculated that you run 5,000 churches. How did you come about so many churches?
Well, that’s not true. I’m a provincial pastor in the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG). I have a parish, which I pastor in Banana Island. As a provincial pastor, I have 91 other parishes that I supervise. That’s the full extent of the church I pastor and supervise.
What’s more is that at the RCCG nobody owns the church. We’re all servants in the church. For those of us who are not full-time pastors, we don’t earn a salary. We don’t earn anything. We’re not paid. I’m a practicing lawyer. We don’t own the church. The fact that I supervise 91 parishes is because it’s my administrative responsibility as provincial pastor. I can be moved to any province any time. I was at another parish, a smaller parish, before I was moved to this parish. I don’t supervise 5,000 parishes, but I will be happy to.
When you heard that you had 5,000 churches, how did you feel?
I don’t understand what Vice President Namadi Sambo wanted to achieve by going around saying things like that. But it’s obvious that he was wrong. But if I could supervise 5,000 churches, there’s nothing wrong with it. First of all, I’m proud of my faith. I’m happy to be a Christian, but my faith also teaches that I must love and show kindness and justice to all men, regardless of their faith. I’ve good friends who are Muslims. Governor Rauf Aregbesola, for instance, of Osun State is one of the closest people to me. He’s a Muslim. His son, Kabiru, is a son to me. I have so many friends who are not Christians.
What the Christian faith teaches is that, even if you have enemies, you have to pray for them, not alone your friends. Jesus Christ came for the whole wide world. He came to show justice to all men. The Bible says, for God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that whosoever believeth in him will have eternal life. Love for all is very important, justice for all is very important.
It’s speculated you would be vice president for six months, after which you would handover the seat to Asiwaju Bola Tinubu. What’s the deal between you and Tinubu?
(Laughter). That’s the most unserious speculation I’ve ever come across. Frankly, I have not heard it. But there’s no such thing. As you know, Asiwaju Tinubu is known for picking people and supporting people he believes would do the best for the state or for the nation, as the case may be. That’s why we have the likes of Governors Fashola, Fayemi, Amosun, Aregbesola. They have done exceedingly well in their states. That speculation that I would quit after six months is too crude to be believed.
Did you give any conditions to General Buhari before you accepted to be his running mate?
No, I didn’t give any conditions. I had met with Buhari. I know he’s an honest man. He’s a straightforward man. He’s a man who wants to keep his words. And I share those values. We share the same values in governance. We believe that this country has been badly run; we must run it well. We must run it fairly and in accordance with the Rule of Law.
There must be freedom of religion; freedom of worship. There must be freedom to do business. It’s our business to create that environment. We must solve the problem of unemployment; we must deal with the power problem. We’re at one in all of the critical issues that affect our country. So there’s no need for pre-conditions.
If elected as vice president, how does your government hope to create jobs?
There are several things. In fact, in writing the APC manifesto, the major question that we asked ourselves while writing any policy was, ‘how many jobs will this policy produce?’ We have several approaches.
The first is some emergency creation of jobs by government. We’re looking at state governments creating a minimum of 20,000 jobs. That’s just a relieve measure. Then, we’re looking at giving incentives to employers of labour, who employ over 10 staff and pay them the minimum wage. We’re looking at giving them tax breaks. That’s just to encourage employers of labour. We also know that we need to clean up the business environment, create an enabling environment for investors and local people to do business so that we can expand the scope of commerce and business. Part of that is working on power sector.
Without power industries cannot thrive. We intend to tackle the question of power very seriously, especially decentralizing power and increasing embedded generation of power so that the current problems with the gas supplies to IPPs may be avoided. Or, at least, in the interim we may be able to provide power by decentralization, cabled to the places that we believe there ought to be power. For instance, we believe that where you have clusters of business, industrial estates, and the like, we should have IPPs to power industrial parks and estates so that industries would have 24/7 power.
We need to be able to invest heavily in building of infrastructure, like roads. That would also bring in many jobs. Farming and mining are two areas where we think considerable job creation is possible. One of the ways in which we intend to do it is by providing incentives to farmers, and this is using commodity exchanges policies. We’ll buy produce from farmers, paying a minimum price for them. That guarantees farmers that they would make money from what they produce. For instance, let’s look at rice.
Thailand does this effectively. Aside from all the other incentives and inputs that we intend to use like fertilisers, improved seedlings. We think that if you provide incentives to farmers by buying produce from them it will be great. Look at what Thailand and India have done. These countries ensured that they paid a minimum price for the production of rice. We now have Thailand rice flooding our market. You’ve got to provide incentives to farmers more significantly in order to make a quantum leap in agriculture, which we need to do.
The whole value chain is another area where we have to encourage private investment. Look at Benue State, with yams, oranges and all that. Rice farming is important, but you need milling. The private and public sector must work together to provide storage and milling and all that in the value chain. So we need to work actively on becoming a major producer of some of these crops. We must make a quantum leap; it’s going to cost us money to do so. Government has to intervene properly in order to energize that sector. Of course, it would provide hundreds of thousands of jobs.
With the dwindling prices of crude oil and the collapse of the value of naira, do you fear that if you take over in May, you would face cash crunch?
There may be initial problems, but that is also on account of misgovernance that we’ve seen in the past few years. Oil prices were consistently at the highest in the history of the country, and somehow our external reserves just never reflected that. Now, when we should have saved, no saving was made, so we’re in trouble.
The problem is not a matter of oil prices going down. Even if oil prices were $500 per barrel, the way the government mismanaged the resources of the country, we would still have ended up being broke and in trouble. The fall in the value of the naira is mostly as a consequence of the bad policies, not just the fall in oil prices.
The devaluation of the naira is a terrible policy choice and misgovernance, and outright corruption. If the Central Bank Governor says between $10 billion and $12 billion is unaccounted for and we are told that PriceWaterHouseCoopers would investigate and it’s been done and the report has been submitted since November, 2014, any government that is serious about management of resources would, by now, have identified what happened, is money missing? The $7bn kerosene subsidy scam is without explanation. The $1 billion supposedly missing from Excess Crude Oil Account has not been explained. The N2.3 trillion allegedly spent on oil subsidy in one year, and the investigation done on it, what has become of them? It’s just misgoverance and corruption.
Once the Buhari administration is in place, one of the crucial issues for us is drawing the line, as General Buhari has said, and say, ‘from now on, these are the rules. You cannot steal government funds. There would be consequences.’ Then we’ll put in place proper governance and ensure that whatever is received as revenue for the Federal Government is properly accounted for, distributed to the tiers of government as it ought to, and judiciously expended. Our take is that if you’re able to block the stealing alone, you’ll make substantial saving to do a lot of what you want to do.
Aren’t you going to look into the records, to say who stole what, and demand a refund to the treasury?
All that there is to do is an investigation by an independent accounting firm. There is a report already. All they need to do is to tell us what happened. All that needs to be done is who did it, why, what are the explanations.
We’ll ensure due process at all times to discover what went wrong. If a significant amount of money has been misappropriated, obviously those amount ought to be returned. We have to find out what exactly happened to it.
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